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Welcome to become an idol. I'm Dr. Robin Sargent, owner of idle courses. This is the place where newbies come to learn and veteran share their knowledge
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I have here with me today, Samuel pata. And you may recognize his name because I have had him on the become an idol show before. I am so happy to welcome Samuel back again, we're going to talk about something completely new, different and I would say, like pretty cutting edge and new technology. So Samuel, I know you've already been on become an idol. But would you just take a moment to reintroduce yourself? Sure. Hi, Robin. I haven't talked to you since last year. So this is an awesome opportunity. So my name is Samuel Semler Potter, I'm a senior structural designer at fossil group, I have been, I've been an Instructional Designer for about seven years,
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upwards of seven years, I do everything from create elearning to
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to, you know, write, write, and instructional design content,
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and participate in other communities, like ATD. So the Association for Talent Development, which I recently just became the president of my chapter at the Fort Worth Minh City,
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my passion and really is for developing talent and for training people to be better at their jobs.
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I also have ventured into other fields, like art, and animation, those are fields that I have a lot of passion for as well. Just a little bit, you're the president of your own chapter in ATD. So congratulations on that. That is thank you so much. huge accomplishment, a lot of responsibility. I'm sure you'll find it out.
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You're like what did I sign up for? Well, it was so interesting to you. So you are messaging me and you have you want to talk about something that I never even thought about which is NF T's for elearning and before we even talk about like NF T's for elearning we I think you've got to tell us what is an NF? T Some people probably have heard of it, but just tell everybody else, someone else put it. WTF is an ft. But
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NFC
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NFC I got
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NFC is are non fungible tokens. So thank you for that as if you're exchanging dollar for dollar or standard Bitcoin for Bitcoin, for example, that that's quite different. In an NFC situation, that amount doesn't one, one product of NFT does not equal another product. So it's, it's non fungible,
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if that makes sense. So it's one, one, the value isn't equal at any one time, as, okay.
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It's just a product that doesn't have up doesn't equal another product. So NFCs have pretty much been around for a while. So, you know, I know the world is starting to come to light of it.
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You know, everyone's it's like the new new thing out there, then people are kind of skeptical about what it is or why they even need to care about it. You know, why am I paying this amount for a piece of jpeg or a png file that I could just download?
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But, you know, like I told you, before becoming an instructional designer, I'm an artist first. So, you know, I'm a trained artist, by two paintings and animation and other forms of art from our from our expressions. So, you know, just coming from that background, that's the value that we place on product is, is we think of products in a different way than
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than
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just commodities, which which is what MFTs
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what the whole concept of NF T's are about. So that's all about having art that is has its own type of value for art's sake
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Right, yeah, other than like, if you're buying shampoo exactly, well, then the value is, you know, a small markup on what it takes to manufacture. So it's like, you know, $4, a bottle of shampoo, or whatever. Yeah. Whereas if it's a painting of shampoo done by Andy Warhol or whatever, then that painting of shampoo could be worth millions.
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And so that's kind of what you're saying. Is it just, it doesn't necessarily have the same it doesn't have a value like a commodity instead, it's an art value. Yes. Okay. So you've mentioned that NFPs could be a JPEG or PNG. So what you're saying is, it's it. I mean, it's actually like a piece of art. And
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it's in a picture file. Yeah, it's a piece of it, sometimes can be considered a piece of art or not all the time. So you can sell you can sell a picture, for example, that's not a piece of art. But it's, it's an expression. So it's,
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in a way, and art is the general use for LFTs. But at the same time, it doesn't have to be something artistic to be an NFT. It's pretty much digital file that has its own
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that's been minted, and has its own unique code, which is stored in a blockchain.
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So pretty much authenticate. So it's authenticated, right? So how, how do you have these files, they just see, you know, could be your avatar could be anything else, like how those files don't have a unique code to them. So maintain is pretty much a way to add a unique code to, to a file, and that makes it authentic, that makes it
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that gives it some value, right? You know, it's a way to convert a digital product into something about and then assign a value to it. And you're able to trade it on some platforms,
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the several platforms out there, that you can trade NF T's.
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By I think for an artist, the first step is to convert that
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piece of art into digital form, and then, you know, meant it on one of those sites. So you pay gas money to get a unique code, which certifies your artwork, you're just so far as a template. So if you are go, I mean, are there some kind of checks and balances, like what stops somebody from just downloading a picture on Google images, and then minting it and saying, it's mine? Yes, that's true. And that's a possibility as well. But so that's the whole point of NF T's that are obviously going to be scams out there. But at the same time,
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I think there's some degree of popularity with it. So, you know, take for example, when Jack Dorsey saw this tweet, his first tweet, then that's on Twitter, by the way, he saw his first tweet on
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on the platform for paying upwards of 2.6 million, something like that, just a tweet. Like it's,
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it's kind of crazy, but, you know, he saw the first tweet ever, you know, for that amount, and,
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you know, that went up in days.
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So, that's not something anyone can lay claim to. Right? So because it's kind of common knowledge. You know, that's his tweets, right? So.
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So those are some that are wasted by NF T's you want to stay away from, you know, ones that you can't really verify who, who produced it or when it was produced, the ones and a lot of brands are jumping into the NFT market right now. So you have Nike just purchased.
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Just for chaste RFT que is it
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they just portrays our T fk T which is a sneaker brand was a NFT sneaker brand they produce a lot of you know, sneakers that are digital files that people can you know, purchase and then go on to where in
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and this whole other world virtual world where you know, it could be in a game or you know, they can just like a sneaker skins or sneaker scan costumes. I know about these things because my my oldest son he's all he's all into like those, those be bucks or whatever and which I never understand where he wants to spend money on digital clothes.
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exactly that are all we apply a fortnight. Yeah. And you know, that's where the world is heading as far as trying to match trying to find an intersection between the virtual world and the digital world. Right? So, you know, how is this this got to be some cross section, you know, I can see a time where people will have digital selves, right, you will have like an avatar just leaving in the digital space where you would have to quote that avatar, just like you clothed yourself in the physical world.
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Yeah, I mean, think about what's going on with Facebook and the meta version, on a, you know, platforms coming up daily. You know, there's, there's a lot of focus, and people are getting creative with it. So
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also, you know, that's the whole point of this discussion to, you know, call on Elon and creators and education.
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You know, folks in education and see ways that we can apply this concept to our learnings and, you know, create value for our learners. Okay, I want to get into, like how we can translate these NF T's to elearning. But I think we have to be a little more clear. So what really is the benefit to the person? Who makes the NFT? Yes, they get like a minted things, of their artwork. But where is the why would somebody want to buy this artwork? Rather than? Like, I mean, if I buy a piece of art, I want to hang it on my wall? Why would I buy an NFT instead of a physical piece of art, so the reason you would buy an NFT is to gain access,
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pretty much. So brands are getting creative with the ways that they
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produce this NF T's and add values had value to them. Think about the board, a theatrical for example. And if you haven't heard of that, it's
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set of NF T's that was created into Dawn 21, where you, if you've seen those monkeys that are those apes that are just different variations of, of apes, where,
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you know, they produced a number of those apes with different features, and then ran it through a program and, you know, different algorithms that just transform them into, you know, so So the eyes, the nose, the hole in the max randomly and the random sequence, and maybe you end up with,
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you know, 10 variations of one type of eight, and then you end up with two variations. One that that's just two variations becomes a rare one, right? Because it's a rare sequence. And that becomes more expensive, that one that's, that has 10 variations of that has 10 types of the same,
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you know, ends up being the same type of ape. So, you know, that was, that was a big one, it was mented. And, you know, just just for having one of those, you can gain access to, you know, primate
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online platforms where you could be chatting with celebrities, or, you know, artists or, you know, creators, CEOs of organizations,
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and things like that, and that's where it's heading, so people are using it to gain access to different things. And I strongly feel like it can apply to elearning as well. I mean, we've been using avatars and elearning for for a long time. And, you know, I can see some connections between
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how those avatars are being used and how we can also apply to some of our our learning. Okay, well, so I think I think maybe we get it right. And if not, like, do Google search, come back to our episode?
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Yeah. So okay, so people, you can make any kind of art, you can mint it, and now it can be assigned value because it is a one of a kind, it's been authorized, and it now has blockchain security on it. And so it will always be able to be legitimized because of this secure blockchain that's kind of on on the NFT. Kind of like, when you you know, send a document to somebody else is that metadata on there? Yes, that's exactly what it is. So, you know, and in this case, the creator of that NFT is protected so they keep making money, as you know,
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Wherever many times that artwork has been sold, they still get a percentage of that, of sale from that artwork. And I see this connection. And you know, even for me, I've been producing elearning for about six years now, I have different templates that I put up on my website. And, you know, I have a, I've included a download count on those files. So I see how many people are downloading those files, even though they're free of charge? Or, you know, there's a,
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I think, you know, if you think of the LFTs, I could have been making something from those downloads. But, you know, teaching is a noble profession, we don't want to make money, right?
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We, we don't think of,
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you know, think of making money, we want to, you know, provide value instead. But, you know, away from that, though,
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away from that. I feel like, there's there's a concept I've been thinking about. So is it possible for someone to take a training and then get something tangible in real life from taking that train? And,
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you know, learners don't just want to play a, you know, go through a gamification gamified elearning? When a virtual cup and, you know, how does that translate to the real world? What does that cane? How do they gain access to a lot of things? Right. So I think there's some opportunities there, if we just, you know, consider a little bit deeper. So now, you've kind of talked about two different things. Samuel, I think we've you've mentioned that NFT can be used to protect the creator of say, for instance, you're saying you could make an elearning template,
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an NF t, and then could you still give an NF T for away for free? Yes. So you can make a elearning template, an NFT. But you, you will also have to think about the benefits of doing so.
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Yeah, and this could be applied to folks that are, you know, selling off the shelf?
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Trainings, like compliance trainings and things like that. How,
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how do you? How do you use a concept of nfts to, you know, make sure that that training is only accessible to your company or to your website, not bootlegged?
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You know, we worry about this things all the time as creatives as well, what if someone downloads your template
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and tries to sell it, make it theirs? And I've seen a few instances, those happen, where someone presents your work as theirs,
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you know, without modifying it at all? Like, it's that that's happened in the past? So, you know, how, how does, how does meant and help prevent that? You know, those are all concepts that, you know, will come to light. In the end, you know, it's still at the early stages, but are there applications? Are there things we need to be thinking about right now? That's, that's the whole point of this conversation. So So you think, oh, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. You know, I was just going to say that, you know, I'm really interested in NF T's right now, and trying to see if there are other folks out there who want to have those discussions and, you know, kind of brainstorm and come up with some ideas for how we can use it in our industry.
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Which, of course, I can always find you on LinkedIn, if they want to continue this conversation, too.
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And so, say, for instance, on like, Yes, this is the coolest elearning template I've ever made. I'm a total artists, everything in this template is my own design by hand. I didn't take anything from free pick or Unsplash or whatever, right? So it's completely designed by me. So because of this, I'm going to mint my learning course. I mean, my learning template, and then I know the thing comes down to like, Okay, now you're gonna sell your elearning template, right? Do you sell it through an NF T channel? And what does that channel look like? It is? I mean, do you check out with PayPal, right? Yeah, you definitely cool that man. Even right now. I know I put up one of my tweets up an open website that sells NF T's even though it's you know,
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nobody knows me right? So you know, it may not have my
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Each value right now. And it's like,
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I mean, the same goes for just template, right? So the, the price of a product is, is based on the demand for that product. So the buyers ascribe
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the value for that product, pretty much the seller may recommend an amount, but it will depends on how much the buyer is willing to pay for it.
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And, I mean, not just that, I think it also, it's also more from how to protect your work perspective than that, then just, you know, making money from it. So it's not,
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you know, with a piece of art, it could go, it's more about how do you if you, for example, as a freelancer, you know, you create courses for clients all the time, and,
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you know, this client wants to sell it on their website, and they're not paying you very much for it. How, how can you make money every time that causes?
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Which kind of sounds, you know, but at the same time, those are, those are all things to think about? Like, what if the client's budget doesn't match up at the beginning, because they don't know if they're going to sell their product, but maybe at some point, the course becomes,
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it becomes a very lucrative business, and you've been paid, not very much at the beginning. And you see this course all over the place, and it's making millions for that client. So you know, are there ways to kind of protect the creator in that instance?
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As well, that's interesting, because I've definitely ran into that. When I was serving clients, they would come to me and they'd say, Oh, I've got an in person training, and I want to convert it to an online digital course. But I don't have a big budget. What do you think about you know, building it for super cheap, and then I'll give you a percentage on the back end. But like you said, I mean, how do you make sure that you actually even get that percentage. So say, for instance, we follow this line of thought, and, you know, I work with this person and say, Sure, I'll build for cheap, but I'm gonna, you know, put NFT mint on that puppy. And as you sell this course, I should be getting some kind of small compensation as the creator of the course that did it for pennies on the dollar. However, don't they need to sell it, that course through some kind of NFT channel for it even to come back to me as any kind of monetary value? Yes, and that's the whole point. So with, you know, when NFC is right now, it's, it's alright, it's digital, you know, new technologies have been developed, you can't buy you cannot buy NF T's with cash, you have to buy it with the Tyrian, which is a form of Bitcoin. So you would have to change dollar Sutera, and then buy the NF T's with utter.
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And you know, what you're paying to mint that NFT is as gas money, pretty much, which is just fees that lets you attach, allocate your piece of art. But it's, I feel like in elearning, there are concepts that we can use, so it doesn't wait, we may not have to go through all of those, and the technology is going to get better, right? So it's not going to stay that way that
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we, you know, we could have our own elearning platform that lets you easily.
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And I think but the goal is, you know, to protect
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the Creator. And, yeah, make sure your work is not being used without, you know, in a way that that that you don't approve of?
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Oh, it's interesting, because, you know, most of the times, you know, for my client contracts, it was always, you know, we build it, you own it, you know, like the end never worried about,
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you know, any kind of ongoing long term.
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You know, income from a course that you create for a client, but it seems like maybe there are other opportunities, too, that maybe you've thought about Samuel, like, besides creating a course, maybe just
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an image in the course or image in the course. And I'm glad you brought that up. No, no, it's always, you know, I create this courses all the time and see the same models being used. Like, this person was probably paid like $200 For this image layer. You know, it's being used and these multiple ways that you know,
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me I don't know what's up conch
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I resigned, but at the same time, it's I feel like if they mentored their image themselves and sold it, maybe they could be making more. You know, you never know. It's all. I'm just thinking about it from an artistic point of view.
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You know, just
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create things, something that just increases with increases in value over time.
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Yeah, so what are some of those other things that you've thought about? Um, all the things that I've talked about as far as using NF T's
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is, you know, like I mentioned, just how do you? What are the intersections? You know, how do you how do we, how do we start to use
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training? How do we start to build trainings for the new world for the metaverse or whatever is coming next, like how do we, how do we stay ahead of that game?
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You know, how do we develop tools for us?
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You know, and just make sure we don't get left behind as far as ELearning Development. It's, I feel like it's, we're major players, and how do we become major players in the metaverse? Those are all discussions that I that I would like to have,
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you know, the applications out there that makes it that makes it easy.
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The platform's we should be looking at how do we
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how do we certify our trainings? How do
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you know if if everyone has digital self, how, how do we introduce the deep self into trainings across black drain?
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The technology is not there yet. I feel like it will get there at some point. You've mentioned the term metaverse. Yes, a couple of times. I think it's worth just kind of defining what you mean by the metaphor of metaverse. So the metaverse as a concept that that has been a sci fi it's it's been in the Sci Fi space for a while lots of movies and movies have referenced it. But I think it was recently brought back by Facebook when they changed the name to matter.
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Or not change the May the parent company's name, meta meta, which is short for metaverse. So it's just this idea that
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there's another sphere that that we can live in. If you've seen Spider Man or any of those other movies on the they talk about spider verse, that's just, it's just about it's just another dimension that humans could live in where maybe a different time or different space
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and but you know, in reality is just an application of different
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virtual reality world where you can put on a head, headphone, for example, you know, think about holograms and, you know, put on headphones and headphones headset and connect with someone across the world. And, you know, they're, it's almost like the band, like, you know, you have your avatar, they have their avatar, you can attend the conference and interact with things in that conference without actually being there.
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Yeah, those are all things that have come in. And, you know, just wanted
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all this online training to stay on top. Oh, okay. I got you. So it's basically like, when you go into a virtual reality universe, exactly.
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Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
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I think you hit like, like the very like, dictionary version. You got all the points in there, but for me, I like okay. virtuality universe, God.
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Okay, so, okay, I see what you're saying. And so like in the metaverse, it's all digital things.
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Yeah, the trees, the avatars, the things that you probably do in there, the physics like all of its digital, all of its some kind of mechanic. And although there's a lot of art, I imagine that goes on in something like that. And if you're going to start thinking about putting trainings, right, in, in a Metaverse, then, you know, how are you going to make sure that all that art you know that new art that you have to create that's 3d even into trainings in
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Metaverse will then how are you going to, you know, mint it and make sure that it's your own? And then if it's used over and over again in this Metaverse and you know, getting some kind of compensation, acknowledgement, yeah, for that, you know, besides that, how do you even, you know, create? How do you
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provide access for the learner to experience other things? Think about us scavenger hunts, for example. So, you know, you're,
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you're asking people to go look for stuff online, you know, report back,
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maybe to a training, you know, answer the answers, and to the answers inside of a training, right? Like, how, how do you? What's the cross section?
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Right there? Like, how do you make it a more seamless experience for the learner to do those things and still, you know, create a training that's meaningful, impacts them, for example, myself, and Maura. I'm an Instructional Designer at falso, I do a lot, I do a lot of sales training. You know, so we're training folks in stores? And,
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you know, could they experience that trainer with a headset, and, you know, have customers walk up to them in the virtual world, without even
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being there, you know, away from just click Next to continue type of loan that they may be used to? How do we?
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How do we use virtual reality? Virtual Reality assertion? In our trainings a bit more? Yeah. And so, you know, I just kind of had a question that popped in my mind, Samuel. So you know, the real beauty of digital files in general, is that you can download them and share them multiple times over and over again, without reducing the quality of the original. Now, you've mentioned that NFT, is you sell them for a value, and then you don't make money till that person sells that again. So within FTS, does it mean, it's just one and done the thing that you've mended? Or can you, like limit the number of times that it's copied and shared kind of like, you know, Bitcoin? There's like only like 1 billion of them, whatever that number is, exactly. Is it the same kind of thing? When with NFT? Yes, it's yes. So all of those, you can limit the number of times that it's produced.
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And, you know, even with, it depends on how it's how it was produced,
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you know, low depending on, but it's all about making things rare, which drives up the value? I think. So.
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You know, when something is rare, right? Like, like right now, you can own a piece of monoliths, which is a pain in this the same monoliths of pain, and you get this shares for those for that pain, and has been traded on some platforms, where you can say, oh, on a piece of that painting, right? And you know, the way it is we are it's it keeps going up. So
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the price keeps going up.
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You know, in a few years, you can probably make a fortune out of little investment. If you can find somebody that wants to buy it exactly. The next trade, you've got to make money.
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So what do you think? I mean, we've talked about NF T's kind of protecting the artists, maybe some ideas about training in the metaverse. But today, what do you think is, you know, your call to action? Is it to further the conversation and the ideas around implementing NF T's in elearning? Specifically, right, because the digital training format that would make the most amount of sense, but like, what do you think is like the call to action for that? What, what do you think is something that somebody could do right now to kind of play? Yeah, future game? FTEs. Yeah, I mean, this, this has given me some sleepless nights, as well, just thinking about, okay, how can we apply this to our industry, right, and
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I think it's just, you know, continuing to be more continuing to embrace technology and, you know, see where it's going and continue to innovate.
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You know, there definitely are opportunities to create or engage in learning. And learning that doesn't feel like learning are usually the best. So wherever we were talking, we're trying to train the new generation of workforce that's, you know, that
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are used to, you know, playing video games and
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just having their own avatars and exist in this virtual reality world, you know, those are, that's the next. That's the next generation of we should be training for. And we, as instructional designers need to upscale in that in that regard so that we can meet them
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in a place that they're that they already exist or are used to.
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So just, you know, embrace technology continue to do our research.
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Yeah, find out ways to
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incorporate what we do into, into their world. And it almost seems like the most ideal way just kind of from our conversation, to actually, you know, the reason why you'd actually want to make an NFT is if you would want to do something, to create a, you know, a digital skin of some kind, or something that it can be used over and over and that, you know, Metaverse or, or any other kind of world where they can use it, like you said that Nike bought those sneaker skins from that one company. And it seems like for trainers, if you are, you know, designing art that specifically for training purposes, well then creating that so that you can sell it to, you know, maybe these bigger companies that are building out these virtual reality trainings, they might be interested in buying some of the skins or, you know, the art that you have, yeah, that's a possibility. You know, and, you know, just also thinking about ways to, you know, and incentivize incentivize training,
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make.
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So it's almost like playing the Mario game. If you play Mario Kart, and you get all of these coins? What are those coins? Were actually what have they resulted into cash? By the end of the game? Like, would you be a little more focused on unlearning? Or in Fiat game like winning you? You know, it's all about motivating, right? Like, how do you
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increase
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the value around what you get? I mean, I see a lot of virtual certificates being printed at the end of trainings, like how do you increase the value of that certificate? Well, it's interesting that you say that because the certificates in the badges are built on a blockchain.
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Right, and those are the ones that are more valuable, not the ones that you know, anybody can make, and then just like, send out as a PDF, but the ones that have an authentication code tied to that certificate in that badge, those become more valuable in the marketplace. Yes.
38:07
Interesting. Well, I, I mean, this is like an episode we've never done before. We don't I mean, most of it is just kind of like a call to action, which is like, go find out more about the opportunities that are presenting themselves in this new era of technology. That's kind of you know, like you said, it's been around, but it's starting to get more popular. And I mean, the best way to really get into something that's futuristic is to get started when it's when it's smaller, right? Yeah, there's a lot we don't know yet. We just have to be early adopters, early adopters, early adopters, early adopters, always when
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you want to adopt the technology as early as possible, fascinating. Well, this has been so interesting, saying Oh, is there anything that you want to say like as kind of like your, you know, your sign off as far as like NF T's and elearning. And, and kind of encourage people for, you know, further research? Yeah, I guess we could manage this interview. Someday.
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Yeah, that's that's a possibility, too. I mean, you can miss an article you could
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you know, anything that you feel in the future might be worth something. Maybe Iran and because maybe FFTs in elearning becomes something big tomorrow, you know. And you Okay, so how, yeah, what are some of the origins and how, just don't like, you know, just just given it was nice talking to you about this though. I think I learned a few things from you as well. So, awesome job. Well, I've learned a ton Samuel and really, this might be a good
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A course topic for a portfolio piece. What are NF Ts? Right? And how are they being used in the marketplace and how can like people take advantage of them or something like that. So if nothing else, then you know, just go do some research and create a portfolio piece on NF T's because so many people have no clue. I'm just like I didn't until we had this conversation. So thank you so much, Samuel, for bringing this to light and in front of our idols. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for listening. You can find the show notes for this episode at idle courses.com. If you liked this podcast and you want to become an instructional designer, and online learning developer, join me in the idle courses Academy, where you'll learn to build all the assets you need to land your first instructional design job, early access to this podcast tutorials for how to use the elearning authoring tools, templates for everything course building and paid instructional design experience opportunities, go to idle courses.com forward slash Academy and enroll or get on the waitlist. Now get out there and build transcendent
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
