Become an IDOL 05: Become an IDOL without Experience or a Degree: One Former Teacher's Story
Published: May 13, 2019
Episode: 05
Become an IDOL without a Degree or Experience: One Former Teacher’s Story
Guest: Tommy Sealock, Net Cracker
In this episode of Become an IDOL, I’ll be chatting with Tommy Sealock about how his background in education proved to be a vital stepping stone into transitioning to Instructional Design.
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In this episode we discuss:
- How his experiences as an educator translated into training for instructional design
- What to look for in a mentor relationship
- The one offering tool to focus on when you’re just starting out to avoid overwhelm
- What hiring managers are really looking for when hiring new instructional designers
- How to use lesson plans to learn instructional design & beef up your portfolio
- Challenges of adult learners versus teaching children
Transcription of Become an IDOL without Experience or a Degree: One Former Teacher's Story | Episode 5
Robin Sargent I am Dr. Robin Sargent, owner of IDOL courses. This is the place where newbies come to learn and veteran share their knowledge. And this episode, I'll be chatting with Tommy Sealock about his experience transitioning from secondary education, to instructional design, and eLearning Development. We'll be sharing tips for switching careers and landing your first job, even if you don't have a degree or experience.
Robin Sargent With me is Tommy Sealock and he is an eLearning developer and instructional designer at Netcracker. And I actually met Tommy through several different channels that we share in common on LinkedIn, and also in the Facebook group Become an Idol. Tommy has just been such a help in that group. He's so active in these different places on social media. I've really just been encouraged by the way that he reaches out and makes tutorials just to help people and answer their questions. I met with Tommy just to come on, and talk about his experiences of making the switch to becoming an instructional designer. He used to be a secondary teacher. So Tommy, will you just introduce yourself and tell us about what you do now and where you came from?
Tommy Sealock Sure. I am an eLearning, Instructional Designer, I've spent the last five years since I graduated with my bachelor's in education or interdisciplinary studies, they call it at the University of North Texas transitioning and building my career into what it is today and that is going from a classroom teacher where I taught middle school English into an eLearning instructional designer, and picking up the skills along the way to kind of make that happen. It's been a really exciting road. I think the reason that I want to reach out and help people is that I had to figure all of this out for myself, you know, when I was coming out of the classroom? I wasn't quite sure what else could I do with a teaching degree? Now, I didn't go directly from teaching to instructional design, I actually just took a job working for Pearson Education. Initially it was inside sales for about a minute. But what motivated me to leave the classroom was the the low pay, the politics within the districts and just kind of the despair of teaching in in a really hospitable environment. I absolutely loved my students. I loved what I did. I felt that I feel that the education I received and the experience that I had teaching really allowed me to be successful in my career today. So it was an invaluable experience for me, but I knew it's not what I wanted, forever. I actually took a job with Pearson selling educational products. That was their entire K 12 curriculum. Anyone who's in education knows who Pearson is, textbooks eLearning. At the time, they had a learning management system, they had power school, we were selling all of it. I was in a very challenging territory where textbook sales were slim to none. I had to be creative. I started learning about eLearning and pushing their eLearning products, and I've had a lot of success selling their LMS and their eLearning content. In fact, I made up 90% of my sales, so much so that I then became kind of a SME in that area and delivered all of the in depth sales presentations on Pearson's eLearning products, which led to me come back to school season actually going out and implementing their LMS system and their eLearning content and school districts. I was traveling nationwide doing that learning about how LMS work in a school system, training teachers on how to use it, customizing their courses on the fly. That's where I learned about the eLearning world and found out that instructional design was a field because I was having the time of my life. I loved it. I loved being back in a school, but also being able to help teachers and not dealing with some of the day to day challenges that came with teaching. At that point, I thought you know what, I'm already customizing these courses. I'm implementing LMS systems. I bet I could find a job doing this full time. That's when I discovered instructional design. I started applying for instructional design jobs, and was lucky enough to get hired as an instructional designer. I had a strong mentor who helped really helped me learn authoring tools. I figured out what I needed to learn. After that, it's just been a process of me, refining my skills, and developing my career and chasing the dream of doing this full time for corporations and becoming the best designer that I can. But I feel like it all started in the classroom. And, you know, I wouldn't have had the grit and the pedagogical knowledge to go as far as I have, if I didn't teach in a classroom where I was designing my own curriculum from scratch every day where I started with nothing where I had high risk students, where I was working 60 hours a week, it was a defining experience for me, and I feel if you're an educator, you really need to frame that experience. Because what you're going through and what you're doing is probably more challenging than what most will ever face in a typical nine to five office environment. I think it speaks volumes about anyone's character, and abilities who's come from that background?
Robin Sargent Absolutely, I have one of my best friends is a teacher. And and you're right, she doesn't just go to the classroom and have to teach the students. At night, she is developing lesson plans. She's working on on more lesson plans and activities and all the things that she has to deliver in the classroom. And then of course, you have teacher meetings and you have school functions that you have phone calls.
Tommy Sealock My first semester teaching, I was put in charge of the ELPAC, which is basically how we assess and place students for ESL. And so I wasn't even supposed to be doing that as a first year teacher. But my first year teaching professionally, I did not have a mentor, I was put in charge of the ELPAC. I didn't get any additional planning periods for it. So in addition to learning how to teach, I was also leading this committee and doing all that taking care of all the home language surveys, and going to the seminars to figure out how to update the students records, which were you know, missing, we didn't have data for three years that I was now all the sudden scrambling trying to collect. There were a lot of challenges. There were a lot of things that as a brand new professional, I didn't know what I was getting into, didn't realize that the things that were happening, were not above board. I felt like the one thing that actually made it all worth it to me was when my students, they were incredible, smart and kind and they were just underserved by a system that wasn't designed to help them be successful. That part broke my heart. But, you know, my students I was teaching them writing. And they they were very successful. And that was because I did exactly what you're describing. They wrote an essay every week, and I graded 130 essays every single week after hours, because we were not allowed to do any grading during the instructional day, it all had to be done either on our planning period or after hours. So for me it was it was, you know, 60 to 80 hour work weeks, I felt that for the salary I was making. It just it wasn't justifiable. But going through, I went through an undergraduate education degree. And, you know, throughout that process, we learned many, many, many aspects of pedagogy and course design and curriculum design that are very similar to what you get in adult learning. But never did we know that there were other careers where you could use these skills outside of just K-12 teaching had many of us known what was out there as undergraduates, it would have really broaden our horizons as to what we could have done after college.
Robin Sargent So you said something about how you made the switch because you applied to work for Pearson. You were doing some customizing and things like that for eLearning courses and the learning management system. But then you had to actually make the switch from being in a sales role to become an instructional designer. So how did you get that first instructional designer title?
Tommy Sealock That happened to me as I was working up here. They were going through a lot of reorganization. My job title changed about three times and that's when I went from an account executive to a virtual learning consultant. I was so lucky that most of my responsibilities within a few months were out of sales and into kind of either doing presentations, or even doing sales training, kind of bringing up the account executives up to speed on how to sell virtual learning and eLearning and then there was not enough field trainers and people with the product knowledge to go out and do the implementations during back to school one year. They asked me to go do it because I had the skills. I did that built my knowledge to discover what instructional design and eLearning was. But I do want to emphasize that all culminated because I didn't really know, I wasn't here listening to a podcast like this, I didn't have anything knowledge that this was a field. Once I discovered that I thought, wow, what I learned as a teacher really aligns well to this, and I'm already tech savvy. My kind of roundabout way into the field, you can kind of skip that, right? If you have the curriculum, design skills, and you know what you're doing, then you have the support to make that change. I did get that job title at Pearson. And that did help me get my foot in the door with interviews. However, the game has changed dramatically, since I had that first job because I didn't have a portfolio at the time. I got very lucky, I feel that that job title would not hold water against a teacher coming out of the classroom, who's gone through this process of creating a portfolio of showing that they have some tangible skills with development and design. And the ability to show that to a hiring manager, I think would supersede any kind of, you know, trading related job title or other way of like transitioning into this field.
Robin Sargent I completely agree with you. It is like a whole new ballgame out there. And it's exactly what you said, I do I think I got lucky. I made a portfolio, but I had no clue. I took screenshots of Moodle LMS course. This is instructional design, right? This is what you're looking for. Now the field is, is different as far as who's recruiting what hiring managers are looking for, and what the standards are. Everyone has a portfolio and that's what everyone is looking for. So to that end, what are some of your best advice as far as first real steps that somebody who wants to become an instructional designer can take right now to land their first job or even just get an interview?
Tommy Sealock Sure. Well, I think the first step is if you're listening to this podcast, you're already engaged in this community, and you know what exists. Good job, right, you're already around professionals, you're learning about what's expected in this type of position, you're engaged, and you already have more than I did when I got started. So that's exciting. I recommend to anyone who wants to get into this field first and foremost, we have social media networks, right? Find a mentor, find someone who's willing to talk to you even as far as if you have to pay them a little bit for their time to just introduce you to this field. And the skill sets needed. Someone who's currently working in instructional design, I'm sure there are many people who would be able to give you some advice for free. Spend more time with them and learn their skills, but find someone you can talk to who can kind of guide you there are many of us out there, and many of us who are willing to help and give advice and tell you what they've learned and what they've experienced and how they gain the skills that they did. Because the best way to learn anything is with a one to one mentorship kind of relationship. And that to me would be more valuable than any other educational experience. The second thing, once you've found someone who you can at least talk to and maybe it's this group, is interacting with on Facebook, in this day and age eLearning is at the top of everyone's mind, traditionally with instructional design the requirements were not such that you needed eLearning experience or development abilities in the corporate world, the definition of instructional design is blurred, drastically work to the point at least where I'm at in North America, the line between a instructional designer and eLearning developer or a graphic designer. That's that's all very blurred. That can be overwhelming for people coming into this industry now that the kind of the job requirements have been stacked on top one after the other after the other. And it's like, oh my gosh, I need to be a software developer and I need to be an instructional designer and do all these things. Well, what I'll tell you is the first thing you need to do is just get proficient with one authoring tool, and the one everyone recommends, and I do too is learning storyline 360 Because you get a 60 day free trial with that just with an email address. 60 days is enough time for you to learn it with basic proficiency. And then you have those eLearning heroes challenges where you can see examples of the kinds of eLearning experiences that folks are looking to create. And the reason I say to focus on eLearning is that is easy to show off with your portfolio, which is the next thing you'll need to make. Right? Once you've learned your authoring tool, once you starting to see what's trending with eLearning, you'll want to build some samples and turn those into a portfolio that's expressed through a compelling website. And that shows kind of your, your taste in design. And if you make that investment in your time, if you learn an authoring tool, and you can learn an authoring tool by going on Udemy and paying $10, for a course that walks you through how to do it, I did it even when I transitioned from Lectora and captivate I switched to go into storyline, I just took a Udemy course. And I was like, wow, where was this years ago, it is not cost prohibitive to get that authoring tool and learn it and build some samples that will become your eLearning portfolio. Again, ILT is important. If you're coming from a teaching role, you probably have strong examples of ILT as a teacher, you have lesson plans, you have curriculum maps, you have six weeks plan. And the way I would sell those is that those show that you understand how to write a learning objective, they understand that you can create curriculum that is a line that is you know, objective focused, and that has assessment that's appropriate to the learning experience. I think that speaks volumes about your your pedagogy, right. So really what you need is something that will show folks that, hey, I can kind of bring the razzle dazzle a little bit, as I like to say, because people like eLearning, it's pretty, it's exciting. And it kind of really brings a wow factor. So that is the process that I would recommend, find someone who you can talk to. And if you really need a lot of help. Or if you really want to go in there, I would say pay them and ask them to walk you through how to do everything with this job. And through the ID specific things like eLearning project management, like Addie, things like that, then get your authoring tool, get professional with it. And based on that, build your portfolio and it is so easy to do a portfolio now to build a website, you have wix.com, where you can build a website about yourself that's really visually compelling that you can link to files from your portfolio, you can use a Google Drive, but you need to have a portfolio website with maybe four to six samples on it that are just really high fidelity. And that kind of gets someone looking at your page excited about what you can do. And then when I do is I have another drop box that is just full of everything I've ever done that I can actually share that I say, Hey, you like this, if you want to see more, here's my other bag of tricks. In my current role, I've interviewed a lot of instructional design candidates from different parts of the world. And I can say that what our manager is looking for what our team looks for when we were doing that is we want to see the portfolio, we want to see the skills, you know, your background is, is not as important as what you can do in in any kind of proof that you can actually do this job. And so that will doing that and making that investment in your time. And I understand as a teacher, it's going to be hard because you're going to work all day, and then you're going to be grading papers, you're gonna be doing all these other things. But you're going to have to carve out the time to invest in yourself, and, you know, find and take a leap of faith into this field. But if you do these things, and you work hard at it, it will pay off and it will be worth it.
Robin Sargent That's excellent. And so just to make a few things clear ILT means instructor led training. And that's one of our, our jargon terms, or our abbreviations or whatever that we use all the time. And then whenever Thomas mentioned, Addie, that's just another acronym for the process and instructional designers used to build courses, Addie, of courses, analysis, design, development, implementation evaluation. And I would just like to add on to that Thomas, awesome, awesome advice is that before you even download the Articulate Storyline trial, go ahead and write a course script. Right? If you are used to making lesson plans, and whatever, just write it out as a full script. And think about what you might want to try to learn to do to make this script that you've written part of your samples and for your portfolio work. That way, you have the full 60 days to learn it, and you have some material to start working with. Because I think that also becomes kind of an overwhelm is oh, I have to write a course and learn the authoring tool at the same time.
Tommy Sealock Oh, that's great. Yeah, that's fantastic. I hadn't even I hadn't thought of that.
Robin Sargent That's why we do this together.
Tommy Sealock Yeah. No, that's really slick. I like that. And that will give you the chance. That will build a very strong habit, which is when you're working as an instructional designer, you should let your your content dictate the treatment, not the other way around. So if you're designing in that kind of design first modality, it will actually build good habits down the line with every elearning course that we do. In my current Oregon that I've done in the past, we design and we storyboard, before we build it, we have a fleshed out design document, that is, think of it like your lesson plan, only about 10 times that. That is what we use to make a basic design decisions, ensuring alignment and make sure that everything's the way we want it before we invest the time and building in an authoring tool. So if you get used to that now, and doing what Robin said, it will help you.
Robin Sargent It's a lot like making a movie, I've had stakeholders or bosses or whatever, in the corporate world when I did that, and they would say, oh, let's just build things in phases. And we'll just make it better later. And I made the mistake one time of like, going along with that idea. And it's actually a terrible idea. Because it's a lot like a movie, and that you can't just, like throw something together and say this is just phase one, here's the course, and we'll just go back and make it pretty later, or make the content better later. No, if you put out a terrible movie, nobody's going to come back for your part two of that move. Nobody's gonna to waste your time. In the corporate environment, especially, there's always new problems to stall, right? You're never going to go backwards and update that phase one version, you're just gonna have this ugly course that you're embarrassed about on your learning management system. One day, I'll fix it. And you never will.
Tommy Sealock That's a challenge. And I feel like you know, another thing you learn in the corporate world is that you're often constrained by resources, you don't always have everything you need. And you have to make do, I feel like as a teacher, I was used to that, I was used to rubbing two sticks together making fire in my classroom. So for me, that that attitude, and that mentality, really made a huge difference when I went into instructional design, and I just had to find a way to learn things, and to get things done. I also think that what you just said about the fact that you need to do it right the first time, absolutely, I can tell you that we focus on evaluation, but a lot of times there's always a new project bouncing at you in the corporate world. And unlike education, where if you're an English teacher, you're going to learn your content area, and then you're going to teach that content area. It's always changing. And with instructional design, you're always teaching a new skill set or a new topic or designing content for some new initiative. So you're learning something for the first time, all the time. And in that something you have to be comfortable with. I think a trap that many new designers fall into is they try to become a SME on those topics that they're working on. Obviously, you want to build basic content knowledge, but you'll always need a subject matter expert who is in that field to guide you and never assume that you are that expert, because you're not. And it's kind of an interesting position to be in because as teachers, we're used to being both the designer of our curriculum and the experts in our content area. And that's something that won't happen. As an instructional designer, your job is to be an expert on learning and development and instructional design. I think of myself as industry agnostic. I've worked in a variety of industries, from the restaurant business, to finance to now. Technology and Telecommunications. And so I can say that, the way you train people the way you develop elearning the processes you use in your best practices that will not change regardless of industry. So if you make the investment to learn those now, it will pay off and you'll you'll be equipped to handle you know, any industry in any subject matter.
Robin Sargent I'm so glad you brought that up. So you've pointed out like some of the ways that lesson planning is similar to corporate training. And you've also mapped out a couple the differences. But what do you think are some of the main differences between writing curriculum in this way for classroom and corporate instructional design? What are the main differences that people may not be aware of?
Tommy Sealock The biggest difference I feel is that first scale. As an educator, you're focused on a really condensed 45 minute lesson. It followed like a model 100 format, or a five E's kind of format, where it's every lesson we know, we're going to have an anticipatory set. And we're going to engage the learner. And we're going to give them some direct instruction check for understanding, some sort of guided practice, individual practice, and then we're going to wrap it up with an evaluation or some kind of summative assessment. Having a strong foundation in a model like that will will help you but with instructional design, with corporate training, you're going to be developing content on a much larger scale. You'll be writing storyboards that are north of 8 to 10,000 words a lot of times, and that's not even very long. So I think the biggest difference is, you're going to have to get comfortable with your writing skills, if you're not coming from a strong writing background be prepared. Because as much of as development is of the on the eLearning side of the visual endeavor, you need to be a strong writer, because every single word that you put on that page, and then in that course, or deliver through that training is going to be seen viewed or heard by all the learners your organization. So I would say there's a developed writing style and you need more, you need a stronger tech writing background, which you'll gain over time. Once you go into this field. The other biggest difference is, you're going to kind of like what I mentioned before, you're going to have a lot of diversity in topics and subjects. And it's not going to be as simple as, alright, I'm going to look at my state standards. And then I'm going to map out a six week curriculum, it's you're going to have your main projects that you're working on through diverse subject areas, and then all of a sudden, you're going to get a request for something urgent, or you're going to have to circumvent your own process to do something off the cuff. It can throw a wrench in your plans. You have to be much more adaptable and willing to work a lot more quickly and just be ready for anything. But from a pure content writing perspective, I do feel though, that if you do have a strong background in designing your own curriculum, writing it from scratch, if you came through a traditional education program, where you're first still forced to learn all about blooms verbs, and forced to learn how to write objectives, and I mean, forest is and I remember I was sitting in undergrad class, it was a three hour class. And we were, we were not allowed to leave the class until we wrote fully aligned learning objectives that had the proper blooms for the proper content and the proper assessment at the end, we had to write them over and over again. And once we got them, right, that was our ticket out the door. And some of us were there for half an hour extra. That is kind of the best preparation you can have for something like this. If you have that strong curriculum development and content development background, much more so than someone who's never written anything like this, right. Or maybe you're an internal employee at the company coming from operations, and you're transferring into instructional design, you're going to be behind somebody who's coming from a teaching background as far as trying to do this sort of thing. The last point I'll make about it is it is a much larger scale, you're going to be dealing with a variety of subjects, including very technical subjects, you could be dealing with things that you don't fully understand. And you're going to have to reach out to a SME to help you to understand what is this technical jargon? Those are the two biggest areas where you might have some challenges.
Robin Sargent Exactly. Those are excellent differentiators between the classroom and corporate training. And also, the differences between teaching children and adults are something else that we should probably just mention. So when you're creating like lesson plans for children, it is similar in corporate training that you have to get and hold their attention. But the difference is some of the main differences for teaching adult learners include things to be able to ask questions, and they like to be able to share their experiences and they like to relate it to experiences that they've had previously. And they want to own more of what they're learning and they want to know like what's in it for them in a real world application.
Tommy Sealock Absolutely. Children are there because their job is to learn that is their primary job. You have a captive audience with children. As an adult in this field, you're competing for their attention with their day job with everything else they're trying to do. Your content has to be specific, targeted, concise and able to use that. Otherwise they're not going to pay attention, you're not going to have the learning outcome. So I think you're absolutely right Robin the big, it's huge difference between teaching children and adults and the fact that there is not a lot of room for error. If you if you don't do everything, right, they're going to ignore it, and then you're not going to have those learning outcomes. Learning and providing more concise learning opportunities for adults that are very targeted to their day job or a specific workflow. They're more willing to do that. I'll just share a very short anecdote. At a previous organization, we were talking about the difference between adding audio or not, and then whether or not we're going to have all the the text on the slide. We wanted to improve the experience by adding audio. And sometimes with adults, you have unintended consequences, because they'll find ways to like circumvent things. When we did add all the audio, I got some wonderful feedback on how happy they were that they didn't have to read anymore. Unfortunately, it was in the form of this is great, I can just play this on one screen. And then I can go and do emails on the other one and just listen to it. I don't have to look at the screen anymore. That defeats the purpose of what we're trying to do here. But unintended consequences, right. And I feel like as you get into this field, those are the things you'll learn and you'll find the right balance and get to know your audience more. And with adult learners, you're going to have a lot more diversity, well it's very diverse with children too. But with adults, the way you present the content to somebody in marketing is different from what you do for somebody in finance, or operations or someone who's a software developer, you have to consider the audience a lot more and what's going to be relevant for them. What is their prior knowledge. And so one of the things we're doing in Netcracker, we try to modularize, our eLearning, as much as possible, so that folks are only getting the nuggets of content that's relevant to them and their job. And then we try to keep our audience in mind and determine which content is truly necessary for this individual, give the learner options to skip certain content, if they already have a background. And if they're an administrative level, they don't need certain things they don't need to know, they can skip it, and giving them the control over their own learning, and allowing them to be an adult and say, hey, I can I can own my own learning experience. I'm not someone you need to tell to click Next to continue on to every single slide, right. I've been guilty of this. As instructional designers, we don't give our learners enough credit, especially with eLearning, where we need to force them through this one path. When in reality, they're busy, they're adults, if you don't create those bite sized, impactful learning experiences, they're just going to click through the whole thing and say, forget it.
Robin Sargent You may not even realize the kind of differences and experiences for designing curriculum, even for my example is higher education, right. When you write curriculum, for higher education, you need to read this textbook, you need to turn in this paper, you need to do this activity, you need to write this on the discussion boards, right? And people do it. And they're motivated to do it, because they are paying for this. And there is a reward at the end, which is their degree or their certificate, and they have those internal motivators, but just like you said, these are adults who are trying to teach themselves when they're on the job. They have all these other things that they have to do, they feel a lot of times that training is just a waste of their time. That's why you see things in corporate training, that's very different from curriculum, higher education or some other educational institution. It's because you will see things like animations and games, and people say that is just stupid bells and whistles. But that's not it. It's about making it engaging, because otherwise they are not paying attention. They do not care. They think that you're wasting their time. Storytelling is so important. That's why making things small and feel like this doesn't take so long. The animations and all that kind of stuff. It's just another way to get their attention and make make it enjoyable for them.
Robin Sargent Tommy, you have shared so much wisdom, this has been all gold. I'd like to close it out by just having you share your final and best tip.
Tommy Sealock Absolutely. And if you notice, there's a lot of trends seeping in from web design and UX design into eLearning Development into instructional design, and that's kind of the way things are going so the more you can learn about design in general, the better off you'll be because the psychology behind what appeals to people visually and what appeals to them in an experience is pretty universal. And you can apply that to your work as an instructional designer. You might go down the path where you're one of those folks where you're completely analog, where you're designing curriculum, you're building a storyboard, and then you're handing it to a developer. And if you're in that role, that's great. But I'd still argue it is important to understand and have basic proficiency with some of these tools and these concepts. So that way, when you are designing your curriculum, you understand the the medium that is going to be delivered and that will make your design stronger. So I don't think anyone's losing out by learning some of these design and development skills.
Tommy Sealock We already touched on everything else. So my final tip is, when you are applying to these positions, you need to be confident, you need to be ready to sell yourself. And you're going to need to apply to a lot more jobs than you think you do. You know, I have a lot of folks who've reached out to me over the time, and they said I am not getting hired and asked well how many jobs did you apply to and they're like, five, no, apply to 50. And out of the ones who call you back, like sales, you need to build a funnel for yourself. And you need to be relentless in pursuing jobs and applying and overcoming rejection, until it happens. Don't give up because there's a lot of opportunity in this field. And if you have done these other things that we've talked about with building your portfolio, and developing your skills, you will eventually get hired. Someone will give you a chance. You just have to just keep being persistent and don't give up.
Robin Sargent That's right. You need just one YES.
Tommy Sealock You can give me 1000 No's you just need one yes and you're in. Once you're in, it gets so much easier.
Robin Sargent That's right. And then there's all these paths you can take. Tommy, thank you. I really appreciate your time. And all your wisdom.
Tommy Sealock Thank you. This is wonderful.
Robin Sargent I'm going to have you back on again later. We're going to talk about UX and interaction design all that fun stuff.
Tommy Sealock Sure. That'd be fun.
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Links mentioned in this episode:
📝 Udemy
